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Resistive load - fender/gibson

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gatguy	Resistive load - fender/gibson		Lead	[-]
Posts: 319 Thu, Apr 10, 2008 22:35:37 Contributing Bronze Member	Tags : None I've just installed the same pickup in the neck position of 2 guitars. While they sound similar, they also have some strinking differences in tone. I'm scratching my head wondering if that's due to: 1) the guitars' construction, 2) quality control in the pups (these are not BL pups), or 3) to the wiring - i.e. any difference in resistive load that might exist between the guitars. I understand that resistors (pots) in parallel add up in the following way: 1/R(total) = 1/R(1) + 1/R(2) + .... and resistors in series add up: R(total)=R(1) + R(2) + ... So.. in my 1vol/1tone guitar, the 2x500k pots give a total resistive load of 250K in all pickup positions. In my 2vol/2tone guitar, the 4x500k pots also give a total resistive load of 250K in positions 1 and 3. [Is that right?] In position 2, I think both pickups are engaged in parallel. So, does the total resistive load equal to 125k in position 2 (4 pots engaged)? I beginning to wish that I'd studied electronics
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djetzi		#1	[url]	[-]
Posts: 16 Fri, Apr 11, 2008 00:40:34	That's a really good question, and I suspect it's an important question that often gets overlooked. I don't know the answer, but I'm hoping someone who does will help us out here.
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javacody		#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1161 Fri, Apr 11, 2008 01:30:57 FIB Humble Man of Steel	Could you be more specific on the guitars? What kinds of wood? What kinds of neck joints? What kind of pickup is it (humbucker, p90, single coil)? Blah Blah Woof Woof -Jimi Hendrix
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gatguy		#3	[url]	[-]
Posts: 321 Fri, Apr 11, 2008 01:54:05 Contributing Bronze Member	javacody, I am also interested in the contributions of wood, construction, etc., but my question is a general one regarding the comparison of pickups in guitars with potentially different resistive loads, particularly the standard fender and gibson pot configurations. I don't want to write the perceived tonal differences off as a wood/construction phenomenon if the tonal difference may be simply attributed to different resistive loads in the guitars. I'm happy to describe the guitars if you're still curious
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handsplayingbutterfly		#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 116 Fri, Apr 11, 2008 01:55:56	We'd have to know what the guitars were to really say much about them, but I don't you'll find any one area that separates them above all else. In all likelihood they're just very different guitars in many respects to the point the pot load isn't of the greatest consequence. Remember, Gibson has been known to use 300k pots in recent years, and once you account for the poor quality control of their manufacture in many cases they're not a far cry from the 250k per pot we consider Fender spec.
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handsplayingbutterfly		#5	[url]	[-]
Posts: 117 Fri, Apr 11, 2008 02:00:56	Also, is it actually the same pickup or the same model of pickup? If it's the same pickup, unless you do a recording, it's hard to compare the tonality - most people's memory for sound, especially finer details, is very poor. If they're two individual units of the same brand, you'd have to consider the quality control. One thing to note if they're immediately comparable is the positions of the pickups. If they're reading different parts of the string and at different scales, that can play a not insubstantial part.
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gatguy		#6	[url]	[-]
Posts: 322 Fri, Apr 11, 2008 04:05:31 Contributing Bronze Member	Yup, good points. Two examples of the same pickup (Duncan Phat Cat). I was told that one of them (the one in the brighter sounding guitar) was a custom shop model, but there is nothing on it to distinguish it as such (I think the comment was a sales pitch). I had thought about the positioning (24fret vs 22 fret guitar) - that should make some difference, sure. I can think of many reasons why the two pups should sound different in the two guitars, but I want to know if they are experiencing different resistive loads or not, so that I can discount, or account for, that in my appraisal.
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handsplayingbutterfly		#7	[url]	[-]
Posts: 118 Fri, Apr 11, 2008 05:19:48	It'd help to know what guitars these are, but again, the only way to know is to check the actual value of the pots. You really have to have as much consistent as possible if you want to make any comparisons so use the same strings fresh and anything else you can think of. Even then it's not too scientific as you have so many variables, which makes it difficult to discern what has what effect - if, for example, you had exactly the same instrument with a different species of wood used for the fingerboard, you still have to understand that the individual piece of wood isn't necessarily exemplifying the group's characteristics and there's likely enough variation within the group to make inter-group comparisons at least fairly difficult, especially with only one representative per group. Throw in 10 variables and saying anything useful about any individual variable is near impossible. In the end you're just talking about two individual guitars. Javacody's questions are all pretty important. Tell us more about the guitars, or maybe describe the differences you hear and perhaps someone could suggest why they could happen given the differences in designs.
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hopdybob		#8	[url]	[-]
Posts: 381 Fri, Apr 11, 2008 07:55:50 Bronze Member	@gatguy if you go to this page you find two versions of the free program electronic assistant. 3.3 and 4.1 the last needs .net2 http://www.erha-electronica.nl/N_xp_3.html this little program can give you the total of some resistors in par ore serial etc keep in mind that resistors have tolerance you can find in the color code in these programs there is a color calculator to
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PeteMK1		#9	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2035 Fri, Apr 11, 2008 10:18:18 Contributing Silver Member Resident Electronics Guru	Just to answer gatguy's initial question: If you have the common 4-pot layout with volume and tone per pickup, you're right that in switch positions 1 and 3 the overall resistive load is equal to 1/R(total) = 1/R(vol) + 1/R(tone). The amp's input resistance of hopefully about 1M can play a role as well, but that shouldn't affect your tone comparison. In position 2 of the switch, each pickup sees the parallel arrangement of its own pots, the amp input, and the other pickup and its two pots. Basically, everything is in parallel now. Therefore you have indeed all pots and the amp input as parallel resistive loads, which is why you can mute the output completely with either volume control. Each tone pot also affects both pickups now, the two cannot be controlled separately. This lower resistive load usually means getting a duller tone, but the parallel pickup arrangement results in an increased resonant frequency and a more cutting tone, which somewhat compensates for that. It's certainly interesting to measure exact pot values and listen to the tones, but one should not expect dramatic tone changes from selecting pots. A maximum tolerance of +-20% is no problem for this application, at least IMO. You can say you to me.
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darkbluemurder		#10	[url]	[-]
Posts: 37 Fri, Apr 11, 2008 10:22:47	gatguy: I believe your calculations are correct. However, the position of a neck pup in a 22 fret vs. a 24 fret guitar accounts for a much greater sonic difference than differences in resistive loads. FWIW I very much prefer neck pickups on 22 fret models as the sound a lot fuller to me than neck pickups on 24 fret models.
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nocaster		#11	[url]	[-]
Posts: 18318 Fri, Apr 11, 2008 16:21:34 The Big FIBer	> "In my 2vol/2tone guitar, the 4x500k pots also give a total resistive load of 250K in positions 1 and 3. [Is that right?]" Yes. > "In position 2, I think both pickups are engaged in parallel. So, does the total resistive load equal to 125k in position 2 (4 pots engaged)?" That's certainly my understanding. i feel the weight of the world on my shoulder; as i'm gettin older ya'll people gets colder most of us only care about money-makin; selfishness got us followin the wrong direction wrong information always shown by the media; negative images is the main criteria infecting the [people's] minds faster than bacteria; [peeps] wanna act like what they see in the cinema
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gatguy		#12	[url]	[-]
Posts: 323 Fri, Apr 11, 2008 23:58:49 Contributing Bronze Member	Thank you for that, gentlemen - at least I assume you are all gentlemen (Why are there so few women on these forums? Don't they care about tone?? Or maybe they ARE out there, hiding behind usernames like Fuzzybeard or PeteMk1 or hopdybob... or gatguy ) That's very helpful. At least I now know that the resistive loads on the pickups in the two guitars are the same in positions 1 and 3 but different (by half!) in position 2. Yes, the guitars are radically different in construction. One is a semihollow, 24 fret, mahogany with solid maple top. The other is a 22 fret solidbody neck-through, mahogany w/maple cap. The pickups are the same distance from the strings, although the strings are different brands and ages (neck-through has older strings), but the same gauge. Assuming that the pickups are identical (excellent quality control at the factory), the hollowbody lacks a certain edgy-ness or hairyness, both in dynamic and in expression of that P90 grit. It seems to be a bit tamer in output, too. It's got that woody acousticness coming through - just as it should I think I might swap back to the L490N, which enhanced that property more. Thanks again for clearing that resistance stuff up for me!
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nocaster		#13	[url]	[-]
Posts: 18325 Sat, Apr 12, 2008 02:29:58 The Big FIBer	IMHO & FWIW, the 495L/490N (610L/609N)) combo is the best for enhancing the acoustic qualities of a semi. i feel the weight of the world on my shoulder; as i'm gettin older ya'll people gets colder most of us only care about money-makin; selfishness got us followin the wrong direction wrong information always shown by the media; negative images is the main criteria infecting the [people's] minds faster than bacteria; [peeps] wanna act like what they see in the cinema
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gatguy		#14	[url]	[-]
Posts: 325 Sat, Apr 12, 2008 05:09:29 Contributing Bronze Member	Good! I'm definitely in the right ballpark then with my L490N/L90XL combo. When I was talking to Becky the other day, she described the L90 as a cross between a P90 and a humbucker - I had the same thought when finally got a chance to play one a few months ago. The L90XL I have is an old 6H model - not as hot as you might think from the XL designation given to it in the 1970s. It's purrrrrfect in my semi In other words, I'm betting the L90 is not too far off your L610L suggestion.
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javacody		#15	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1163 Sat, Apr 12, 2008 16:48:04 FIB Humble Man of Steel	I was asking about the guitars' construction because if they are significantly different from each other, you should hear different tone from the same pickup mounted in the same location on each guitar. So the question was very relavent. Now that you've described what these guitars are, then tonal differences make complete sense. Finally, where are the sound clips my friend? I want to hear these guitars. Blah Blah Woof Woof -Jimi Hendrix
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fuzzy beard		#16	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1551 Sat, Apr 12, 2008 21:16:54 Contrib. Silver Charter Member Wilde Tech	>Why are there so few women on these forums? Don't they care about tone?? Or maybe they ARE out there, hiding behind usernames like Fuzzybeard.... Last Edited By: fuzzy beard Sat, Apr 12, 2008 21:36:14. Edited 1 time.
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PeteMK1		#17	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2036 Sat, Apr 12, 2008 22:24:59 Contributing Silver Member Resident Electronics Guru	I thought PeteMK1 was a pretty good choice for hiding behind... You can say you to me.
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javacody		#18	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1164 Sat, Apr 12, 2008 23:07:58 FIB Humble Man of Steel	Yes, or gatguy could actually be a gatgirl... Blah Blah Woof Woof -Jimi Hendrix
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PeteMK1		#19	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2038 Sun, Apr 13, 2008 21:17:42 Contributing Silver Member Resident Electronics Guru	Good to know we're not alone, Javacodine... You can say you to me.
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