mating a "mudbucker" with a P or J pup?

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cathousemouse	mating a "mudbucker" with a P or J pup?		Lead	[-]
Posts: 1 Fri, Sep 19, 2008 23:51:32	Tags : None okay, i am building my version of a mud hammer (NOS Gibby 70's EBO side winder pup) mahog body topped with a Lacewood (similiar to Alder in sound) top and a laminated Maple setneck 32" Ebony board scale. EDIT: the reason i am working with a 32" scale is because of an old shoulder injury. the problem is i want a bridge pup (and have been advised to use a "P" pup) to balance with the mudmaker (30 k DC) so that it doesn't over-ride the muddy pup. therein lies the problem. 1) a low value DC (6-8k) pup tends to drown out the mudmaker. why i don't know! in my opinion the "Minibucker" that came in the EB3's sounds "bony" and a TB Plus (at 9.8 DC) is WAY too fierce! 2) if i can't balance the bridge and neck with an aftermarket pup, can i lower the DC value of the mudmaker with a "Q" filter (is filter the correct word?) and still keep my "mud"? and 3) what in the opinion of the resident electrical engineer/player here would be an acceptable value working with a BL "P or J" pup? (i'm an ex truck driver so i wouldn't know the difference between this and a hound dog that flies or how to even start to answer this question!!!) so please keep it simple 'splaining this one, thanks. 4) i am working with about a 2.125" bridge pup string spacing . the mudmaker goes close to 1.93". i can tell you i plan on starting with a 250k T pot and a .047 cap on the mudmaker tone circuit, , a 300k V pot and doing a simple V T V T circuit for the whole rig. i don't want to go into that Gibby 3p4t-4 way switch/1.5 Henry choke filter contraption that Gibby used on the old EB3's unless i absolutely have too! that switch is useless i think and probably better replaced with a 3 way switch. Last Edited By: cathousemouse Fri, Sep 19, 2008 23:56:14. Edited 1 time.
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nocaster		#1	[url]	[-]
Posts: 19138 Sat, Sep 20, 2008 06:13:26 The Big FIBer	> 'if i can't balance the bridge and neck with an aftermarket pup, can i lower the DC value of the mudmaker with a "Q" filter (is filter the correct word?) and still keep my "mud"?' I would expect mud-level to drop somewhat. i feel the weight of the world on my shoulder; as i'm gettin older ya'll people gets colder most of us only care about money-makin; selfishness got us followin the wrong direction wrong information always shown by the media; negative images is the main criteria infecting the [people's] minds faster than bacteria; [peeps] wanna act like what they see in the cinema
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nocaster		#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 19139 Sat, Sep 20, 2008 06:25:41 The Big FIBer	> 'what in the opinion of the resident electrical engineer/player here would be an acceptable value working with a BL "P or J" pup?' NOT "the opinion of the resident electrical engineer/player"… Firstly, you can't spec a custom wind with BL. Secondly, the problem is that DC resistance values actually say very little, even across model ranges of the same maker, let alone when looking to mix pups from two or more makers. Unfortunately, it's a matter of trial and error, or finding someone who has already done what you want to do. > "a low value DC (6-8k) pup tends to drown out the mudmaker. why i don't know!" Lastly, it should be stressed that mixing a single coil pup with the kind of pickup you are going to put in the neck is problematic because of the greatly differing frequency responses. The single coil in the bridge position will be delivering higher frequencies, which are more readily heard/perceived by the human ear than the lower frequencies delivered by the humbucker in the neck position. i feel the weight of the world on my shoulder; as i'm gettin older ya'll people gets colder most of us only care about money-makin; selfishness got us followin the wrong direction wrong information always shown by the media; negative images is the main criteria infecting the [people's] minds faster than bacteria; [peeps] wanna act like what they see in the cinema
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cathousemouse		#3	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2 Sat, Sep 20, 2008 17:41:03	i understand about the single coil "P or J" and the mudbucker match. i am looking at a dual coil "J" wind. i also understood when i called that no custom winds would be coming from BL (the QUALITY of your winds is what caught my attention!), Lord knows he is like the one armed paper hanger now. the reason i am asking is because of the reading here has shown me more in the last three days than i have been able to glean off the net about pups in general in the last year. i think i'm beginning to love that old man (i'm no spring chicken myself! lol) as i am a 60 y/o retired (think disabled because of a wet load of steel 12 years ago = no big accident just that i have survived 4 pulmonary embolism's resulting from a pulled muscle) trucker. i can tell you i love life and from the pics of the shop tour, i can tell BL does too. Rock and Roll or in BL's case Jazz it up, lol. what kind of stuff do i look for? ...DC = is there a rule of thumb or a reccomended about how far this value might vary between pups? ...Henry value = basically the same question as above. ...Output = ditto. if i understand what you are telling me then it might behove me to use the "Q" on the bridge pup and increase the value of the tone pot/cap combo when i try to make the marriage. kind of like learning to swim = keep trying till ya float, write the results of changing some values and see if i am heading in the right direction or how far to go by the produced tone. i think you nailed my questions. i understand (a bit) about Eddy currents being an ex-sailor and diver (some definitions do transfer lol) and i am presently looking for some one around here with a induction meter to give me some answers about this mudmaker. thanks for your response about losing the mud. that helped a lot in figuring out this is probably a total tone thing. looks like i'm gonna have to build a "fake" guitar for bench testing pups through my amp and get a good Fluke meter. best of luck to you and all of yours and excellent reading about Bill. it cleared up a lot of questions about "WHO is Bill Lawrence and what did he do for the industry?" i'll become a regular reader in here but probably not make a lot of posts for awhile (i'm still digesting a plethora of info in here). Last Edited By: cathousemouse Sat, Sep 20, 2008 17:43:24. Edited 1 time.
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nocaster		#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 19145 Sat, Sep 20, 2008 18:12:21 The Big FIBer	Getting recommendations for capacitor and resistor combos to try might be a good idea. Obviously, Bill is a good source of such info, but keep in mind that he probably won't like the idea of the mudbucker. The BL forum on this board is potentially a good starting point. PeteMk1 and fuzzy beard know their stuff. Pete can hopefully point you in the right direction. i feel the weight of the world on my shoulder; as i'm gettin older ya'll people gets colder most of us only care about money-makin; selfishness got us followin the wrong direction wrong information always shown by the media; negative images is the main criteria infecting the [people's] minds faster than bacteria; [peeps] wanna act like what they see in the cinema
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nocaster		#5	[url]	[-]
Posts: 19146 Sat, Sep 20, 2008 18:18:51 The Big FIBer	I'm thinking that a split P pup is probably a better option than any other, because its two halves facilitate added setup flexibility. Balance-wise, I think a lot of if can be resolved by carefully tweaking pickup heights, which is where the split P should have added advantages. And of course, Bill's pickups have the advantage of being especially sensitive to height adjustments and also have low magnetic pull. You might also want to consider lowering the resonant frequency of the P pup, and Pete is the man to seek out in this regard. i feel the weight of the world on my shoulder; as i'm gettin older ya'll people gets colder most of us only care about money-makin; selfishness got us followin the wrong direction wrong information always shown by the media; negative images is the main criteria infecting the [people's] minds faster than bacteria; [peeps] wanna act like what they see in the cinema Last Edited By: nocaster Sat, Sep 20, 2008 18:22:14. Edited 1 time.
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nocaster		#6	[url]	[-]
Posts: 19147 Sat, Sep 20, 2008 18:25:32 The Big FIBer	> "what kind of stuff do i look for? ...DC = is there a rule of thumb or a reccomended about how far this value might vary between pups? ...Henry value = basically the same question as above. ...Output = ditto." Problem is that these things don't really determine output. That's a common myth. And there isn't even an agreed standard of measurement used by all manufacturers. Really, it's essentially a crapshoot. i feel the weight of the world on my shoulder; as i'm gettin older ya'll people gets colder most of us only care about money-makin; selfishness got us followin the wrong direction wrong information always shown by the media; negative images is the main criteria infecting the [people's] minds faster than bacteria; [peeps] wanna act like what they see in the cinema Last Edited By: nocaster Sat, Sep 20, 2008 18:29:24. Edited 1 time.
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nocaster		#7	[url]	[-]
Posts: 19148 Sat, Sep 20, 2008 18:29:01 The Big FIBer	> "i am [...] disabled because of a wet load of steel 12 years ago = no big accident just that i have survived 4 pulmonary embolism's resulting from a pulled muscle" Sorry about that. Hopefully early retirement has its bonuses. And I hope you have no more problems! i feel the weight of the world on my shoulder; as i'm gettin older ya'll people gets colder most of us only care about money-makin; selfishness got us followin the wrong direction wrong information always shown by the media; negative images is the main criteria infecting the [people's] minds faster than bacteria; [peeps] wanna act like what they see in the cinema
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cathousemouse		#8	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3 Sat, Sep 20, 2008 18:38:14	nocaster wrote: Sorry about that. Hopefully early retirement has its bonuses. And I hope you have no more problems! good points about the "P" pup answer: it is in turn with the plans for my life. if i knew what those plans were it would probably scare the pea-wad out of me!! but i am back into music as a result and am presently grandpa's baby setting service to the most magnificent little man that ever was....my grandson...and he is going to be taught the guitar and bass! the things i didn't devote time to as a young man now seem to carry a greater value as i have grown older. God in his charity has given me the grace to recognize this before i die. again i stand as a child wondering in awe at the magnificence.
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PeteMK1		#9	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2108 Sun, Sep 21, 2008 21:20:55 Contributing Palladium Member Resident Electronics Guru	As far as I know, these old Gibson pickups have an inductance of about 65 H (!), and a DC resistance of 30k, like you said. I've never heard or played one of these, but it's probably fair to say that there's nothing on the market today that comes close to these characteristics. The demand for such a low resonant frequency seems to be very low as well. :-] When selecting the bridge pickup, I suggest you try to think of the bridge pickup tone that you like most and install the corresponding pickup. That will give you another tone and thus some versatility. The (parallel) mix position will be dominated by the bridge pickup, at least as far as frequency response and output are concerned. That's because of the parallel wiring of the pickups, but you will obviously have some contribution from the neck pickup as well; the exact result is hard to predict. Tone and volume pot and cap values won't change the behavior substantially: With the humbucker, a tone control is essentially useless, and the value of the volume pot won't have much impact either. So, the pots can be selected to suit the bridge pickup. If you're not dead set on using the Gibson humbucker, another possibility would be to have two pickups in the usual inductance range with an option of a series wiring. That can give you pretty dark tones as well, and if that's not enough, a small cap can bring down the resonance even further. I do know that such an arrangement will not sound exactly like a big neck humbucker, but it's an option worth considering IMO. You can say you to me.
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cathousemouse		#10	[url]	[-]
Posts: 4 Mon, Sep 22, 2008 02:10:31	yeah, they are behemoths alrighty but mud is it's own reward as long as it is good mud and not all fuzzy. think lotsa (8) 10's and power or a 15 or 18 and power with about 4-10's in the upper cab. on some covers it is essential. with what you and nocaster have posted i think project 4 is inline = a BL-P pup and maybe a J pup, and i should forget about trying to mix apples and oranges like i was thinking. maybe a Warmoth Dinky P or a reverse Explorer Korina body with a medium neck, hmmmmmm? pics of projects are in my album. the LP Junior is at the luthery with the bridge cover getting powder coated black and the SG (the one with the pointy horns for all you Fender fans) is the one i was going to try and mate with a bridge pup. it's gonna get sent as pictured with one small change see my albums and look for the coil tap on the bucker pic. i found out they are wired in series stock (one reason they are such behemoths in output) and i think a coil tap with a series/parallel switch could make this a more livable deal. meanwhile i'm still thinking of the P and J project. peace. that leaves me with a set of cloverleaf Grovers and a badass original bridge for #4 already. two edits for spelling and one for content the things i didn't devote time to as a young man now seem to carry a greater value as i have grown older. God in his charity has given me the grace to recognize this before i die. again i stand as a child wondering in awe at the magnificence. Last Edited By: cathousemouse Tue, Sep 23, 2008 20:49:44. Edited 4 times.
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